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This started as an email discussion on several email lists. I'm pasting the releveant responses in this page as a starting point to hammer out the details into a more cohesive whole on these wiki pages.
I've heard/seen various arguments about the language origins of some of Tolkien's languages, as well as protestations over the accents used in Peter Jackson's movies, BBC productions, etc. This includes some people being upset with everyone having UK-based accents only (London, Cockney, Welsh, Scottish, etc.), and not including Baltic, Slavic, Asian, African, "American", Finnish, Spanish, etc.
My question is, where I can find relatively clear definition of the "accents" for different cultures when they are using the Common Westron tongue? > App. E and HoMe? XII.
I hope once this page is laid out in a proper Wiki format that many will find it a very useful resource, not just for "acting witha proper accent" in an RPG setting, but also for any other non-gaming Tolkien enthusiast or language scholar. I know from unpleasant interaction that some/many of the more scholarly Tolkien fans who do not participate in role playing gaming tend to take a rather dismissive, if not completely condescending or sneering, attitude towards rpgers. But I hope that some will over come their bias an participate in this topic since it has merit outside of gaming, and could be useful to all.
What I'm hoping for is specific listings by Tolkien (either J.R.R. or Christopher), defining the language roots/similarities to "our world's" languages.
Below is the List of accents I'm trying to get details on. The ones that have received a response will link to the coresponding Wiki page in this section of the site.
Personally I imagine the "voice" of the narration as J.R.R. Tolkien's. And I imagine the accent of Bilbo and other Hobbits to be of English/UK type. But the rest of the cultures, I do not know.
For example: Different Farthings of The Shire (London? Yorkshire? Cornwall? Welsh? Cockney? Irish? Scottish? etc.) ? Bilbo? Frodo? Pippin? Merry? Samwise Gamgee? Gaffer? Farmer Maggot? Breelanders ? Barliman Butterbur? Dunedain (Aragorn et al (Adunaic)) = ? Istari (Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman, etc.) ? Tom Bombadil? Beorn? The Nazgul ? Noldor speaking in common = ? (Finnish?) >Elf-Latin with a Finnish accent? Would sound interesting...
Sindar, Silvan, etc.? >In the HoME?, he said that the elves' preferred mode of speaking Westron, > especially for ceremonies, was very archaic and elaborate, equivalent to King > James English versus modern English. >>I am not aware of this source, either. It is certainly not in HoMe? XII. And the LotR? Elves do not seem to use KJ English at all!
Dwarves (same or different between the different tribes?) ? >Since Tolkien compared Dwarves once with medieval Jews, perhaps a Yiddish accent might be of use? >> Source? I could not find this in "Letters" anywhere. But there is this from his famous 1971 radio interview: >>"The dwarves of course are quite obviously - wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic."
- JRRT>>> Dwarvish Westron = Yiddish English. The Movie uses Glaswegian Scottish English. >>>>Does it? Curious. I thought the only Dwarvish character in the Movie to speak much was Gimli, and the actor in question is Welsh (and sounds it).
Gondorian commoners, compared to Gondorian nobility (Denethor, Boromir, Faramir, etc.) (if any difference)?
>Very pure upper-class, see App. E.
Orc, Troll, Uruk-hai (Morbeth Black Speech) etc.?
>American! Judging from the texts, they sound a lot like hollywoodian Chicago gangsters. >What BTW is Morbeth? >>Not to me. They sound like British urban snarlies. "Garn" is a very British expression. >>>Agreed. They sound nothing like Chicago gangsters to me, either. Nor even other American stereotypes. More British street thugs, than anything else.
Ent? >Veeeeeeeery sloooooooooow
The Great Eagles? Eriadorian? Dunlending hillmen? Common people of Erech and then the Daen Coentis of the Mithlond Vale? >What is a Daen Coentis?
Rohirrim? >The Rohirrim literally used Old English. Their quotes in LotR? are actually written in Old English. >>Thanks for that little bit of info! I am teaching Beowulf in class tomorrow and I will bring that up. I knew that somewhere along the way but forgot it.
>>Here is a good (as good as wikipedia can be) article on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohan#Language_2
>>> This is L152. Note Tolkien's comment: "But in a period when 'dialect' merely marked place and not rank or function, and at any rate details of grammar and vowels had no social implications, it would be best to avoid any modern rusticity." So much for "Steward's Westron" then.
Theoden? Grima Wormtongue? Dalemen? Easterling (I understand that's lumping together many different cultures) Southrons (Haradrim, etc.)? Umbarian "Black" Numenorean, Corsairs? The people of Tharbad? The people of Pelargir? The lord and/or people of Dol Amroth? Drughu/Woses? The Lossoth (The Snowmen of Forochel, remnant of the Forodwaith)?
>Give me air! Tolkien was good at wasting his time instead of finishing his stories, but even he couldn't be bothered with this level of marginality...!
During the Second Age: Numenorean royalty (and commoners if any difference)? Eagles of Manwe? The Forodwaith (latter became the Lossoth)?
First & Early Ages: Valar, Maiar,Dark Elves, others, etc. ?
> Sorry, no Common Speech (Westron) back then.
What I'm hoping for is specific listings by Tolkien (either J.R.R. or Christopher), defining the language roots/similarities to "our world's" languages.
I wondered if it would be helpful to mention the common distinction in Celtic language discussions between the P-Celtic Bythonic languages such as Welsh, Cornish and Breton and the Q-Celtic Goidelic languages such as Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic and Old Manx?
The point being that even peoples in close proximity, as the parts of Celtic Britain were to Ireland and the Nordic countries, still allows for huge varitations in language development. It could be the same for The Shire, moving outwards for example....
I have always imagined the Dwarves to have a more Germanic or Nordic language, with perhaps the men of Bree having a Middle English accent, and Rohan an Old English/Old German language.
But then these ramblings show why I'm not a language scolar!
I recall Michael has written alot about the culture of Rohan, and certainly Tom Shippey discusses it in both his books on Middle Earth.
>A good think you can do is making a research about the origins of names, mostly of those who have real-world names (Rohirrim, Hobbits, Bree vicinity etc). Several names are traceable, English, Celtic, Gothic and can be fit in a geographic area. Trying to simulate this with 'gothic' or 'celtic' accent would be a good try
>That's why I think that Merry and Pippin in the movie were played by wrong actors. They should have switched roles!!! Merry, being a Bucklander (mostly celtic names there) should have the scottish accent, not Pippin.
>Since the entire plot is set in the far North West of Middle Earth, the most distant accents that might be reasonable on purely geographical grounds are European. As far as I am aware (which is not very far), we know of few language groups among human speakers at the time of LOTR: (a) Adunaic (including "classical" Numenorean, "archaic" speech of Rohan, and "modern" Westron (b) unknown pre-Numenorean speech of Middle Earth (perhaps spoken in Dunland etc.) (c) language of Pukel men, possibly the same as (b) Anything else?
>Otherwise, there are human speakers of Elvish and the Black Tongue.
>Elves, Dwarves, Wizards, and Ents all live long enough to learn fluent Westron in a native accent.
>Since Buckland is a marginal province of the Shire, it would be logical for Merry to have a regional accent comparable to a British regional accent. But as luck would have it, in the M*vie it is Pippin who has a Scottish accent, which might have done for Merry. >> Especially since the Bucklandish tongue carries relics of Dunlendish, which is represented by Celtic.
>In his choice of vocabulary, grammar, and spelling, Tolkien clearly indicates a rural southern or midland (?Warwickshire) accent for lower-class hobbits such as Sam, and a Cockney accent for orcs.
>The only explicit statement of which I am aware is that by Tolkien, that any similarities between Middle-earth and real-world languages are accidental coincidences, and they share no roots at all. (He was not strictly accurate in this statement, but it reflects his impatience with would-be cross-world etymologists.) The only detailed discussion of "accent" that I can think of is the rather implausible tale of the "Shibboleth of Feanor", which was apparently invented as a "patch" to work around a glitch in the historical morphology of the Elvish tongues. >>And there are a few about the pronunciation of Sindarin in App. E.
> Elves, Dwarves, Wizards, and Ents all live long enough to learn fluent Westron in a native accent >> What is a "native" accent for a wizard? Saruman could no doubt imitate any accent that he liked!
Though a few of the details are dubious (e.g. the pronunciation of Old English "Deagol" and "Smeagol"), I've found this article "Accent Rational" interesting: http://www.andrewjack.com/projlotrar.htm. It's from Andrew Jack's website - the Dialect Coach for the Movie.
I don't have my Tolkien library with me, but in addition to the authentic Tolkienian references found on that webpage, here are a few canonical references to accents that I remember off the top of my head. (Note that "accent" refers to a variety where someone, whether a foreigner or a native, is speaking the standard language, but with a slightly different phonology, and a few different word usages, like a college educated U.S. Southerner or Chinese immigrant speaking American Standard English with a Southern or Chinese accent; while "dialect" refers the traditional varieties of a language that are very divergent from the standard language with different grammar, phonology, and terminology, like an Appalachian coal miner with little formal education who still uses "hit" and "hain't" for "it" and "ain't". For another example, in England today, there is a continuum from the Received Pronunciation/BBC/Queen's English...through various Regional Accents...down to theTraditional Dialects, which mostly survive among the rural elderly; this continuum is known as "acrolect-mesolect-basolect"):
In one of his Letters, Tolkien approved of the use of a Yiddish accent for dwarves in a radio play. In another letter also spoke of how to represent the modern English speech of the Anglo-Saxons in a radio dramatization of the The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son. This would be equate to the accent of the Rohirrim. In the HoME?, he said that the elves' preferred mode of speaking Westron, especially for ceremonies, was very archaic and elaborate, equivalent to King James English versus modern English. In the HoME?, there is a reference to Bree-dialect when the Breelanders don't understand some educated word used by the Shire hobbits. The reference may be more to the Breelanders' uncouthness than their regional dialect. It would be interesting to see if the different calendars of Bree and the Shire are based on differences between two different regions of England. In a Letter to the Tolkien Society, Tolkien said that the Shire placenames are from England, but especially from the West Midlands. It could be inferred that the rural folk throughout the Shire would speak with rural West Midlands varieties. This would be different from the Movie accent scheme where the country folk speak with a Southwestern accent. Buckland is in many ways parallel to the Welsh Marches adjoining the West Midlands. Thus the Bucklandish accent could be like the speech of the Marcher counties. Here are my suggestions for the Westron varieties of the late Third Age, including only peoples referred to by Tolkien (though some of the terminology is my own), leaving out the MERP- and Decipher-created peoples for now. First off, here's the varieties of Westron that are spoken as a native mother tongue:
Shire Gentry Westron = Received Pronunciation/"Oxford English" (the acrolect of the Shire). Bilbo and Frodo would speak this. In the Movie, Merry speaks with a mixed Gentry-Country accent. Shire Country Westron = varietal continuum from West Midlands Regional English (rural not urban...not the speech of urban Birmingham) (in other words, Standard English with a West Midlands accent; the mesolect) grading to the basolect of West Midlands Traditional English (which would use nonstandard dialect words and phonemic system; the variety would specifically be the speech of the county of Warwickshire, since Tolkien stated the Shire represents a Warwickshire village circa 1897. The Movie scheme had West Country/Southwestern English (specifically the speech of the county of Gloucester) instead of West Midlands...used because Southwestern is the archetypical "country" accent of England. Spoken by Samwise. See note below on an alternate scheme of accents based on the Shire being equivalent to all of England, instead of just the West Midlands. Bucklandish Westron = varietal continuum from Marches Regional English to Marches Traditional English, and possibly even to Welsh English among the most remote Bucklanders who were the last to lose their Breelandish language acquired from their stay in Dunland. According to this scheme, Merry would speak a mixed Gentry-Bucklandish Westron. Tom Bombadil might speak with a Marches Regional Accent, since his main source for conversation was with Farmer Maggot. Tolkien said his name "Bombadil" is of the Bucklandish (quasi-Welsh) type. Of course his syntax and worldview is completely idiosyncratic. On the other hand, Tolkien in a Letter, referred to Bombadil as the spirit of the vanishing Oxford and Berkshire countryside, so he might speak a pre-industrial Traditional Dialect of that region. Breelandish Westron = varietal continuum from Buckinghamshire Regional English to Buckinghamshire Traditional English. Based on how Bree Hill has a Primary World analogue in Brill, Buckinghamshire. (Movie: Tookish Westron = Scottish English. This is not as incongruous as it may seem at first, since the Tooks were a Fallowhide clan, and since the Fallowides represent the Angles, and since the Lowland Scots tongue is really a true descendent of Old Anglian. In this scheme, there might be a continuum to the Scots language as the basolect of Tookland.) North Dunadan Westron = RP with an Irish/American "r", like the Movie. The native language of the Chiefdom of the North, along with Sindarin. High Gondorian Westron = The Movie's use of RP with Northern English color for "terseness", seems reasonable. The "Steward's Westron". This would also be the variety used by the elves in everyday conversation, and is also the acrolect thoughout in every area that has contact with Gondor (e.g. except the Shire and Bree). Low Gondorian Westron = I imagine that the common folk of Gondor, or at least of Minas Tirith, would speak something like London English, with some of the populace even speaking Cockney. The various provinces of Gondor are geographically equivalent to the countries of Mediterranean Europe, but since Tolkien "Englishes" and "de-Mediterraneanizes" the West-lands/Europe it probably wouldn't feel right to have, say the people of Lebennin speak with a Greek accent or the people of Anorien speak with a Tuscan accent. Minhirian Westron = Cornish English. Since Tolkien states that Dunlendish proper is the only language of that language family that survived to the late Third Age, the Huntsmen of Minhiriath would have lost their Brythonic Cornish language. Troll Debased Westron. Cockney with Cant words. Orc Debased Westron. Cockney, like Troll speech, but not as dull. Uses lots of curse words that Tolkien editted out. In the Movie, the Uruk-hai were given a harsh militaristic tone of voice. Here's the varieties of Westron spoken as a foreign language. Of course, certain linguistic prodigies among any folk could speak Westron without an accent (i.e. they'd aim for the "Steward's Westron"...the Received Pronunciation of Gondor).:
The Istari would speak Westron perfectly, and could possibly imitate many different varieties. Elvish Ceremonial Westron = King James English. I imagine many of the Elves had the skill to speak like a character in a Shakespeare play, or like in the poetry of Edmund Spenser. Wood-elvish Westron = The broken English of Wood-elves who don't know Westron very well. Might be represented by something like the pidgin Westron/English of the Woses. Grey-elvish Westron = Probably most (all?) Grey-elves would speak Westron fluently, in the manner of Gondor, and in their own elaborate Ceremonial style. However, any that didn't, would have an accent influenced by the phonology of Sindarin. For practical purposes, this could be like Welsh English. Note: all Noldor could speak Westron perfectly. Dwarvish Weston = Yiddish English. The Movie uses Glaswegian Scottish English. Dwarvish folk of the East (and South?) might speak with other accents based on the English of people who speak other Jewish languages - those of Asia (and Africa): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_languages Norn Westron = RP English with a Swedish accent. Influenced by the Norn language of the Lake-men and Dale-men (translated as Old East Norse). Rohanian Westron = RP English with an "r", like the Movie. Modeled on High Gondorian Westron. Their native tongue is of course the Anduinic variety translated as Old Mercian. Beorning Westron = modern Northumbrian Regional English, perhaps with some Northumbrian Traditional English for flavor http://www.northumbriana.org.uk/langsoc/. Influenced by the Beornican variety of the Anduinic language which is equated with Old Northumbrian. Woodman Westron = RP English with a German accent. Influenced by their native Wududiotisk language (equated with Old High German) Dunlendish Westron = Southern Hiberno-English Snowman Westron = Pidginized Finnish English. For examples of their syntax see the text where the Snowmen help Arvedui. See comments below on this correlation and other more controversial correlations. Wosish Westron = Pidginized Berber English. Syntax something like American Indian Pidgin English. Examples of this speech are found in the LotR?. Nurnian Westron = Armenian English. Influenced by the Nurnian tongue, equated with Urartian. Near Haradian Westron = Arab English. Influenced by the Near Southrons' common tongue, equated with Punic. Far Haradian Westron = Hausa Nigerian English. Influenced by the Far Southrons' common tongue, equated with Hausa. Khandian Weston = Turkish English. Influenced by the Variags' native tongue, equated with Hittite. See comments below on this seemingly simplistic correspondence. Easterling Westron = Mongolian English. Influenced by Eastnish, the common tongue of the most powerful confederation of Easterlings.
I found it interesting what the Movie did with Sauron's voice. When he was speaking Black Speech (like through the ring), the /sh/ sound was seemingly given a retroflex articulation, which is a feature of South Asian languages and Mandarin Chinese. I felt this gave Black Speech an exotic feel.
- As far as the stranger varieties
- I imagine that the Westron speech of the Ents is pretty much as described by the books and depicted in the movie - longwinded and colored by their arboreal worldview. For the Eagles, I imagine the King of the Eagles would speak, well, "kingly", like the the King's English...though they might have eagle-relevant terms (like referring to other folk's homes as "eyries") and they might shreek as an interjection. We'll have to wait for a Hobbit movie to see how the professionals would do it.
In addition to the Movie's scheme for the accent of the Shire (the "Gloucester scheme") and the inferred literary scheme (the "Warwickshire scheme"), it's conceivable that a more elaborate scheme could be used, where North Farthing Westron = varieties of Northern English, South Farthing Westron = varieties of Southern English, East Farthing = varieties of West Midlands English, and West Farthing Weston = varieties of East Midlands English. The East Farthing and West Farthing dialects of the Shire would be switched in regards to the East and West Midlands dialects of England, since Buckland is equated with the Welsh Marches, and Tolkien explicitly states that the Marish folk of East Farthing are similar to the Bucklanders, would would suggest that the East Farthing people are like the West Midlanders abutting the Marches. Also the Yale is a Brythonic/Welsh placename is in East Farthing, which suggests a longer Brythonic influence, such as was the case in the West Midlands, not the East Midlands.
A final note: here's a Wikipedia page about some of the above-mentioned dialects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_dialects
--- Posting responses by osric (begins) ----- What a marvellous post, Shane. :-) I know the subject has been addressed before, but I don't think I've ever seen anything so comprehensive, nor so well-informed by such sources as are available. With a little reworking to an essay format, this would be something it'd be good to see posted on MERP.com.
Emphasising Tongues in the Game Over the years, the gamers I've played with have tended to act with too muchparty unity[1]?, and expected NPCs? to receive them with the same sort of "global village" openness that we enjoy today. In Middle-earth, such trust and accepting was not common, especially in times of strife, such as those in which most adventures tend to be set. Morgoth, where he was able, sowed suspicion between the races of the Free Peoples, and I'm sure that the agents of Sauron would have stimulated as much tension as they could between the races of Men. Much of LOTR involves interactions with gracious members of the Wise and ambassadors and leaders of various peoples, but I would hesitate to take these as representative of most people's encounters with strangers. I believe that interactions in Middle-earth at large should more often follow the tone of the strained encounters between Eomer and the Three Hunters, and at the gates of Edoras. This means that a game will be spiced up by Diplomacy/Interaction rolls being more important, brings in modifiers for the race(s) of the characters and the language they use -- including getting the right accent/dialect -- and makes more of the role of minstrels, loremasters or well-travelled characters within the party. (I treat communication with a different accent as being one rank less effective, and some dialects two ranks apart; also, without a special talent even mastery of a language fails to erase one's accent.)
Incorporating the detail Shane presents would bring such interactions all the more to life, and add an additional dimension of interest to what might otherwise be seen as just a pointless delay before the next fights or dungeon-foray.
I think I recently read in PoME? that Tolkien "supposed" the dwarves would have something of a Jewish/Yiddish accent, as the influence of their native, guttural Khuzdul would colour their accent -- which they would invariably have -- when speaking other "outer" tongues.
PoME? does include Tolkien's explanation of the fact that the dwarves' Old Norse-inspired names came into usage during the alliance of Dwarves and Men in distant history (Second Age or early Third)[2]?. By the time of TH and LOTR, these are an archaic form no longer close to the speech of their Mannish neighbours. That might weaken the case for their having a Northron-style accent, but I'd still incline towards their Common Speech being broadened by ("Yiddish"?) emphasis on the kh and ch sounds, and with ("Yiddish"? and/or "Nordic"?) gutturally rolled r's.[3]?
I was influenced by Nicol Williamson's reading of TH, in which he did Thorin and the other dwarves in a Lancashire accent, which is not very kingly to English ears! Perhaps it was an indication of Thorin's line having fallen on hard times and been reduced to mining coal in the Blue Mountains... Most of the world, including Peter Jackson/Andrew Jack/John Rhys-Davies[4]?, seems to have adopted the "Scottish dwarf" stereotype, which would work for me in terms of phonics (the kh's, ch's and r's mentioned above), but introducing elements like "laddie" is a step too far.
[1]? This is no doubt (a) a backlash against party disunity and backstabbing that can result in no one getting anything achieved, and (b) a product of people playing face to face with their good friends, some of whom also prefer to play their PCs? as vehicles for themselves rather than immersing themselves deeply in another role.
[2]? In my head I have this as fitting with the Longbeards' time in Gundabad, but I haven't looked into it carefully. I bet Thomas could confirm!
[3]? Have you ever told a Nordic girl you love the way she rolls her r's? I saw a friend do it once, AND duck the slap that followed. To "roll your r's" sounds a lot like "to roll your arse", which is very different! :o)
[4]? Andrew Jack might want to be taken with a pinch of salt. I come from a bit north of Sean Bean's Sheffield, and the northern elements to his Received Pronunciation are just him (see also his performance in Ronin, for example); I've never noticed any similar elements in Faramir's or Denethor's speech. It occurs to me that the film folk sell their spiel more authoritatively than it deserves, when in fact it's more a case of justifying what material they have. I suspect the same for Billy Boyd's Scottish.
--- oliver post begin ----- The only actual reference to yiddish I can find in the letters is unrelated to dwarves in any way. What he DOES say (Letter 176) is that he thinks of the dwarves much like Jews. What he says verbatim is: "But they took some trouble with the names. I thought that the dwarf (Gloin, not Gimli, but I suppose Gimli would look like his father -apparently someone's idea of a German) was not too bad, if a bit exaggerated. I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the language of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue...." I don't have the adaptation here, but at first glance, this looks more to me as a likening of the general cultural situation, not as of thinking that their speech should be represented by Yiddish, especially not by Yiddish vs. English.
In my eyes, if anything, their "accent" should be related to Khuzdul, on which we have precious little material. Overall, however, I'd say the dwarves of Erebor and the Iron Hills, having adopted names from the norse tradition which is likened to the people of Dale and the Long Lake, they, along with the same human people would best be represented by a scandinavian tilt.
--- Oliver post end -----
>Much interesting. "Deegol and Smeegol" were of course the way Tolkien pronounced those names ... Which is not as classical Anglo Saxon would be [now]? pronounced. Whether he intended that to reflect Mercian Anglo Saxon, or whether (this is quite likely) it was intended to be a modern English rendering (D&S are after all not Rohirrim) I don't know. >>There is at any rate a tendency to adapt archaic names to modern pronunciation in Middle-earth. Even Elrohir was no doubt born as Elrochir, but no one refers to him like that.
>> No, but it is probably the way a modern hobbit would pronounce classical Rohirian. Anyway, their true names were Trahald and Nahald, so the odd pronunciation may perhaps reflect a Shire-slang: "Tra'ald" or even "Trâld".
First off, thanks for the responses Oliver, Osric, Lalaith, Celebrimbor, and Hawke.
I have just today unpacked my car from a move from West Virginia to Montana, and my Tolkien books are still boxed up. Also ,due to economic circumstances I don't own but one of the HoME? books - though I've read through them fragmentarily at the bookstore and library . My memory is pretty good in regards to certain things, such as Middle-earth language details, but it is possible I misremember. I appreciate that other people on the list with access to their collections have posted the actual texts. In regards to the Bree-dialect point, I'm fairly confident that it is in the Return of the Shadow volume.
Oliver wrote: The only actual reference to yiddish I can find in the letters is unrelated to dwarves in any way. What he DOES say (Letter 176) is that he thinks of the dwarves much like Jews. What he says verbatim is: "But they took some trouble with the names. I thought that the dwarf (Gloin, not Gimli, but I suppose Gimli would look like his father -apparently someone's idea of a German) was not too bad, if a bit exaggerated. I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the language of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue...." I don't have the adaptation here, but at first glance, this looks more to me as a likening of the general cultural situation, not as of thinking that their speech should be represented by Yiddish, especially not by Yiddish vs. English.
Lalaith wrote: Source? I could not find this in "Letters" anywhere.
Lalaith, the quote Oliver cited is the one I mean. Though I may be misunderstanding, my understanding of that Letter is that the radio-play gave the dwarves a German accent ("-apparently someone's idea of a German) was not too bad, if a bit exaggerated"). This sentence was immediately followed by "I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews", which I take to mean that it was obvious that the German accent of the radio-play Dwarves was evocative of the German accent of Yiddish-speaking European Jews, and that Tolkien was saying in effect "Yes, the German/Yiddish accent for the dwarves wasn't too bad...in fact I do think of dwarves as being like Yiddish-speaking Jews." This is why I said in my original post that Tolkien approved of the use of Yiddish English for Dwarves. It's possible the radio-play used the German accent to evoke the Teutonic dwarves of the Nibelungenlied, not Yiddish-speaking Jews...or that I'm completely misunderstanding what Tolkien is referring to in regard to the German Gloin or Gimli. Does anyone have access to that adaptation that Tolkien was responding to in his Letter?
Khuzdul is clearly a Semitic-style conlang, and more Hebrew-like than the Semitic-style Adunaic conlang, which is more Arabic-like. In fact, Khuzdul also has Yiddish (German) features: according to the RotK? appendices, the schwa sound is common in Dwarvish - there's even a cirth for it. The schwa sound is common in both Yiddish (and German), but not in Hebrew. Also, both Yiddish and Hebrew have a /ts/ phoneme - and Dwarvish likely does too, since the sound has its own cirth. Here's a relevant post from the Elfling list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/33030. So, just as Welsh English could be a used as a practical equivalent of Sindar Westron (since Sindarin is a Welsh-flavored conlang), Yiddish English (or Hebrew English) could be used as the practical equivalent of Khazad Westron (since it is Hebrew and Yiddish-flavored conlang). I personally feel that the other accents that have been used to represent Dwarvish Westron, such as Scottish and Lancashire, are reasonable equivalents too, and that there are other accents that could evoke the right feeling among an English-speaking audience as well - such as maybe Yorkshire, Pitmatic, Norwegian, or even Russian. This is based on a scheme where *one* Primary World accent can be equated with each Middle-earth accent, not on a scheme where a master philologist hand-crafts new English accents based on various phonaesthetic flavors. As Osric suggested, ideally a linguist could make a "constructed accent" based on how having Khuzdul as a mother tongue would influence English/Westron to result in the Dwarvish Westron accent.
Lalaith wrote:
>>Note Tolkien's comment: "But in a period when 'dialect' merely marked place and not rank or function, and at any rate details of grammar and vowels had no social implications, it would be best to avoid any modern rusticity." So much for "Steward's Westron" then.<<
Lalaith, I don't understand what you mean by "so much for Steward's Westron". I find this quote by Tolkien useful in that it suggests that the Rohirrim (since they are similar to the Anglo-Saxons) wouldn't speak one of the Regional Accents or Traditional Dialects of Britain... Tolkien is saying that they'd speak Standard British English
- the Queen's English/Received Pronunciation, which I call"Steward's Westron" (and would've been called the "King's Westron" when there was a king in Gondor, just like the "Queen's English" was previously called the "King's English"). The Movie scheme does not follow this exactly, since they gave the Rohirrim a "Steward's Westron with an /r/" accent. However, I personally feel this is a reasonable choice, since their native Old English/Anduinic language has an /r/, and so though they aimed for the Steward's Westron of Gondor, they'd still pronounce the /r/.
Celebrimbor wrote: I thought the only Dwarvish character in the Movie to speak much was Gimli, and the actor in question is Welsh (and sounds it).
In regards to Gimli speaking Scottish English in the Movies, here are some quotes from interviews with John Rhys-Davies:
Mod: You had a lot of time training with the axe then? JRD: With the accent? Mod: Uh, yeah. JRD: Well, I just copied Sean Connery (laughter). Oh, did you say the axe or the accent? Mod: Well, I said the axe, but you took the accent, so. JRD: Oh all right then. (http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1059671802)
- Crescent Blues
- Considering how critical the English are of Americans doing English or Scottish or Irish accents, you're working a tough crowd when you do a Scottish accent at home. Was it ever a problem?
- John Rhys-Davies
- Oh yes, of course. Sometimes when I'm really good, and I put the effort in on it, I'm quite good at it, but I've gotten very lazy with accents.
Hi, who do you think has the better scottish accent, you or Pippin ? :)
- JohnRhysDavies?
- Pippin is a genunie Scottish Hobbit, but he should have a shire's accent. JohnRhysDavies?: If he doesn't, he's a bad Hobbit and I will smack him next time I see him.
So you really enjoyed playing Gimli? A: It was great fun. Gimli is rather Scottish actually (http://www.tribute.ca/newsletter/08/starchat_01.html)
[While I'm at it, I found this interesting quote about Treebeard's accent. -Shane]? Question: [snip]? when you were playing Gimli, how did you end up playing Treebeard as well and what did you do to make them two separate characters? Peter just said to me one day, 'Do you want to do the voice of Treebeard as well?' and I said 'Oh, yes, go on.' I have never had more trouble with a character than that, 'cause when you read it, I see this works in my imagining but gosh did it feel risky and dangerous because there's a cartoon quality about [Treebeard]?, you know, the walking talking tree and how do you make him real? How do you make him believable? I mean, how does a tree talk? So we tried everything; we spent hours and hours of trying to sort of (demonstrates) breathe on the intake. Oh, and he's slow, I mean he's in.finite.ly slow.and how the hell do you make that work on film? In film, we get it instantly - 'OK, it's a slow character, what's he say? Next!' So, one has to get the suggestion of the slowness.it's a very slow mental process that he is.delving into - he's the oldest living thing on Earth. He remembers more than any of us ever will. And to get that over and at the same time have the age of the character and have the energy, the elemental rage of the character sometimes.Well, we tried everything. We tried.I wanted to make a layered effect of the (demonstrates) deep rumbling sounds and then (demonstrates) leaves just whishing away in the wind and layer them all together we tried it and it was just muddied. In the end we went back to our very early experiment of just almost doing it straight. And then the thing was to make it not sound too much like Gimli. The other thing is of course because he is a moving tree, he might have bits of accents from different parts of the country, and we tried it that way, with a bit of Lancashire and a bit of West Country and a bit of Wales and a bit of Scots. And with all these experiments they were interesting but in the end you have to make a decision. And if it works, I take full credit, and if it doesn't work, blame Peter Jackson! (http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1059672334)
I don't remember where I got the idea that his the Scottish accent was specifically Glasgow-flavored...I seem to remember reading an interview where that was mentioned...my memory is usually pretty good on this subject...but it is possible I misremembered.
Lalaith wrote: I am not aware of this source, either. It is certainly not in HoMe? XII. And the LotR? Elves do not seem to use KJ English at all I wish that I could post the original source. I am quite certain it is in one of the HoME? volumes - I have no idea which one, since, as I said, I read them piecemeal at bookstores and libraries. In any case, the Elves would only use this elaborate Westron amongst themselves or in special occasions. Otherwise, they'd speak in the manner of Gondor.
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